ST Alpha - "But are you saying that these people are not guilty of a crime? -- nm" (Reading a Post)

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In response to "in a perhaps more relevant parallel: an urban teenager convicted of a petty crime, gets sent to jail and hooks up with gang members while in prison" by znufrii

But are you saying that these people are not guilty of a crime? -- nm

Posted by oblique (aka kkuphal) Jan 23 '09, 07:29

(No message)

Responses:

no, but often times people go to jail for something very small, get out and know no other life but what they've learned in prison. -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 07:32 1
- [deleted]
I've said nothing of the sort. -- nm - znufrii Jan 23, 07:30 42
- So, the people in gitmo are guilty? So we should let them go? - oblique Jan 23, 07:31 41
  - how are these questions relevant to the point I was making? -- nm - znufrii Jan 23, 07:33 40
    - Isn't your general point that these people did nothing, were picked up and imprisoned for years without cause? - oblique Jan 23, 07:37 39
      - well, a lot of them go on to fight the system (prisoners' rights groups, project innocence, all that stuff), but if you get deported to Yemen, that's - mafic Jan 23, 07:48
      - You also are asking this from the viewpoint that the Gitmo detainees are treated like US criminals. - Will Hunting Jan 23, 07:44 1
        
        yep, that's why they're in Gitmo in the first place, so they don't have to be. -- nm - loosilu Jan 23, 07:45
      - [deleted] 27
        
        I'm not getting that from kilbo's posts at all -- nm - Roger More Jan 23, 07:41 23
        
        [deleted] 21
        
        can you link to one of his posts, instead of paraphrasing? - Roger More Jan 23, 07:50 2
        
        [deleted] 1
        
        It looks to me that you're criticising his tools of argument, and not addressing (what I see as) his point. -- nm - Roger More Jan 23, 08:02
        
        Good people rarely turn to crime and terror no matter what their circumstances? -- nm - Name Withheld By Request Jan 23, 07:46 17
        
        [deleted]
        
        i think years of being treated with waterboarding and torture for information might just turn anyone from 'good.' -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 07:48 15
        
        Yet, there are countless examples of people who have gone through as trying or even more trying circumstances and haven't. - Name Withheld By Request Jan 23, 07:57 2
        
        there are always examples of being being strong, and of people being weak. i never said 'every person will become a terrorist' - but i can understand - Andie Jan 23, 07:59 1
        
        I'm not suggesting that you are being universal in your statement. - Name Withheld By Request Jan 23, 08:05
        
        I guess I have my doubts that this is what is truly happening there on a regular basis to the average detainee -- nm - oblique Jan 23, 07:52 11
        
        ah, see, i don't. -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 07:53 10
        
        [deleted] 3
        
        there's a huge difference between a handful of prisoners vs. daily torture as a rule to the population -- nm - oblique Jan 23, 08:01
        
        right (i was saying i don't have any problem believing that torture is pretty much the norm) -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 08:01 1
        
        [deleted]
        
        (It's why they are there - so that the normal standards don't need to be followed.) -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 07:54 5
        
        though they have said they've only waterboarded like 5 guys (or maybe 3?). the rest of them just get the 'augmented interrogation techniques' -- nm - mafic Jan 23, 07:59
        
        Military vs. civilian trial standards perhaps - oblique Jan 23, 07:58 3
        
        This is my understanding. That the evidence to hold them wouldn't hold up in a US court, but they wanted to hold the prisoners nonetheless. -- nm - Name Withheld By Request Jan 23, 07:59 2
        
        yep, military courts have different - loosilu Jan 23, 08:01
        
        so, that's okay? by our owns laws we can't keep you, so.... we'll keep you anyway, just not "here". -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 08:00
        
        I'm getting that everyone is trying to push each other into the "extreme view" corner. -- nm - loosilu Jan 23, 07:43
        
        *marvels at the logical leaps being made on all sides* -- nm - loosilu Jan 23, 07:40 2
        
        *pulls out the Jump to Conclusions mat* -- nm - Strongbad Jan 23, 07:41 1
        
        *bloop* -- nm - WiiJump to Conclusions Mat Jan 23, 07:48
      - actually, no, that wasn't my point at all. -- nm - znufrii Jan 23, 07:38 7
        
        So what is the point of saying that "those that weren't AQ now have the connections"? - oblique Jan 23, 07:39 6
        
        first of all - there are other terrorist organizations other than AQ. Some people in Gitmo are completely guiltly, some were in the wrong place, - Andie Jan 23, 07:42 5
        
        Regardless of the organization, you still have two groups: terrorists, non-terrorists. I'm speaking of the non-terrorists -- nm - oblique Jan 23, 07:44 4
        
        it's fun to see everything in black and white, isn't it. -- nm - znufrii Jan 23, 07:51
        
        right. did you read my IM? -- nm - Andie Jan 23, 07:46 2
        
        sure, and it goes back to my point. How often do people truly innocent (non-terrorists/non-criminals) put side by side with criminals (imprisoned) - oblique Jan 23, 07:48 1
        
        i said it above, but, do you honestly think that being treated as a subhuman by US respresentatives for years might not change your very basic nature? - Andie Jan 23, 07:50

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