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In response to ""Which FrogThor?" -- nm" by What I'm reminded of every comic controversy

The comics industry has a pretty serious problem with misogyny. Too many old, white dudes just not getting it, both on the

Posted by TWuG Mar 17 '15, 19:29

publisher and creator side and on the fan side.

These issue may look trite, but they reveal a really unpleasant reality that needs to be overturned in a big way.

Responses:

All hail the new thought police! - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:37 75
- Don't be on the Adam Baldwin side of this. It is an ugly place. -- nm - TWuG Mar 17, 19:45 49
  - I've followed it fairly closely, not just the one-sided bullshit msm coverage, there's ugliness on both sides, yes BOTH sides. - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:51 48
    - Our perspectives on this could not be more diametrically opposed. - Reagen Mar 17, 19:53 47
      - The extreme anti-GG crowd is just as vile as the extreme pro side. nm - Dignan Mar 17, 20:09 2
        
        (The Gamerghazi subreddit, for example, is fucking *teeming* with self righteous assholes.) nm - Dignan Mar 17, 20:11 1
        
        Well, it is Reddit. -- nm - Tim Mar 17, 20:17
      - You've read msm pieces with an absolute bias. I've seen the supposed pro-women/minorities tell women and minorities to kill themselves for supporting - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:56 43
        
        You've also said that those women being harrassed shouldn't be able to killfile the harrassers. - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:02 3
        
        I've said that in the context of the special snowflakes who actually say, I shit you not, criticism and disagreement is harassment. -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:14 2
        
        of course it can, depending on duration, place and manner. - Reagen Mar 17, 20:27
        
        sfek and that it was being used by the IGDA as a blacklist. -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:15
        
        I've read way more than the MSM stuff, let's just leave it at that. - Reagen Mar 17, 20:00 38
        
        Step 1. Deliberately take footage/gameplay out of context. Step 3. Profit. - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:12 36
        
        Why should a female developer get a free pass for creating a regressive character just because she's female? - Reagen Mar 17, 20:24 24
        
        So you've never heard of McIntosh, Sarkessian's producer? Because those are his exact words (too much gameplay...) -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:33 4
        
        Also, because obviously some women too want to see a kick-ass female warrior who is "sexy" - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:35 3
        
        You've obviously been reading some one-sided bullshit yourself. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:39
        
        No, it's asking why that is the *only* (or close to) representation of women in video games - Reagen Mar 17, 20:37 1
        
        Funny then that Wu's characters in her crappy game all have the same body type that she criticizes... -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:39
        
        The vast majority of GG is perfectly fine with a bigger sandbox, and gender equality. - Dignan Mar 17, 20:28 18
        
        I have yet to see a GamerGate supporter speak out against what's happening to Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu or anyone else that's been threatened or - Tim Mar 17, 20:33 2
        
        Wow. I think it's universally acknowledged that the threats and harrassment are unnacceptable. - Dignan Mar 17, 20:40
        
        Are you kidding me? It was GG who found the Brazilian "journalist" who was threatening Sarkessian. - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:37
        
        I've never seen any suggestion that people against GG are negative towards gamers - Reagen Mar 17, 20:32 13
        
        It was the anti-GG press that wrote that spate of "Gamers are Dead" articles a few months ago. - Dignan Mar 17, 20:46 4
        
        The message of that article was "you don't have to be a certain type of person to consider yourself a Gamer anymore". - Reagen Mar 17, 20:50 3
        
        No, the message was "misogyny killed gaming." - Dignan Mar 17, 21:08 2
        
        There are no leaders on either side, just louder voices. - Dignan Mar 17, 21:16
        
        largely because the leaders of GG (such as they are) are part and parcel and complicit in that attitude, from what I see. - Reagen Mar 17, 21:11
        
        Then you're willfully ignoring it. - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:41 7
        
        It's clearly referring to the people who are attacking based on misogynistic attitudes, and clearly not towards all people who play games. - Reagen Mar 17, 20:44 6
        
        No, it's used in reference to anyone who has a differing opinion of games. Like Code? You're a goony neck beard loser, etc. - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:53 5
        
        I would say that you are 100% misreading that tone. -- nm - Reagen Mar 17, 20:55 4
        
        When it's being said by the same people who use white cis male as a pejorative, I'm pretty confident that I'm not. -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 21:05 3
        
        Here's the difference. The mostly white male gamers with their panties in a bunch over being inclusive to women are punching down. - TWuG Mar 17, 21:14 2
        
        Except no one is freaking out about including women!!!! - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 21:26 1
        
        Clarification: that's NOT what the vast majority of the pro side is criticizing... - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 21:28
        
        The problem is that those dicks start to become the voice of gamers if that's all you can hear from the gaing community. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:32
        
        If Bayonetta conforms to the same misogynistic attitudes about women already prevalent in games, that's hardly a good thing even if the creator is a - TWuG Mar 17, 20:22 10
        
        The problem with that is you have devs who are now saying that they're actually afraid to create any female characters because there's ALWAYS - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:30 8
        
        I would say that based on developments it's a) not a minority b) having a positive effect - Reagen Mar 17, 20:35 7
        
        Sorry, but I call bullshit on your "GG freaking out when minority characters are included" -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:44 3
        
        Dragon Age: Inquitions, for a start. - Reagen Mar 17, 20:46 2
        
        Which isn't representative of the whole.... -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 20:57 1
        
        Or any time you see developers make a move towards more progressive decisions - Reagen Mar 17, 21:00
        
        Exactly. And the "make your own" suggestion is a bit hard to put in to practice since these games take millions to develop. That requires - TWuG Mar 17, 20:41 2
        
        Didn't GG partly start over a small "make your own" game? - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:44 1
        
        Depression Quest? -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:45
        
        About 46-48% of the gsming community is female, and the area that's had the largest growth the last few years. - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:29
        
        Thank you. -- nm - Tim Mar 17, 20:06
- Huh? the creators of the book themselves said "what the hell is this cover?" -- nm - Reagen Mar 17, 19:40 24
  - The artist himself asked that it be pulled. - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:43
  - Do creators usually get a say in what's put out as a variant cover? -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:43 22
    - Sometimes. Buit the tone of the cover couldn't be further from the tone of the book and was driven by the Marketing team/$$ not "artistic freedom" -- nm - TWuG Mar 17, 19:45 20
      - I think it was driven more by the fact that it was the 25th anniversary of The Killing Joke that it was paying homage to... -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:53 12
        
        Which is fine and good except that The Killing Joke audience and the audience for this book are separate circles. - TWuG Mar 17, 19:59 5
        
        It also sounded like a lot of the other Joker cvers are lighter in tone, but the artist took it darker. - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:08 4
        
        I think Eaglesham was just asked to provide "a" cover and given mostly free rein. - TWuG Mar 17, 20:12 3
        
        Has most of the criticism been about the tone or that it promotes violence against women? nm - Dignan Mar 17, 20:19 1
        
        I think there's been both. The less knee-jerky people are arguing tone is the issue. - TWuG Mar 17, 20:27
        
        It is a great piece of art and totally inappropriate for that book. And he agrees on the second part. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:18
        
        And $$$$. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:56 1
        
        Yes, i've already acknowledged that that is one function of variant covers... -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:58
        
        And $$$$. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:56 3
        
        Bery? Is this on yourend or mine? - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:59 2
        
        Not sure. -- nm - Beryllium Mar 17, 20:05 1
        
        I updated FF a week or so ago, but it hadn't changed that before today. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 20:09
      - To drive fans to buy more than one copy of the same book. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:47 6
        
        Yeah, that's what a variant cover is for... -- nm - Scots-IrishStephen Mar 17, 19:52
        
        Sure. It's a common practice and I have no issue with publishers doing it. But the covers should work with the tone of the content they surround. -- nm - TWuG Mar 17, 19:48 4
        
        I know, but frequently they don't. And, as you said, $$$$. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:51 1
        
        Sorry for the multiposts. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:52
        
        I know, but frequently they don't. And, as you said, $$$$. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:51
        
        I know, but frequently they don't. And, as you said, $$$$. -- nm - tobor.2 Mar 17, 19:51
    - I would sure as hell hope so. -- nm - Reagen Mar 17, 19:43
I absolutely agree; my point is along the lines of "these are the things comics fans readily accept, but have a problem with actual agency - Reagen Mar 17, 19:32 1
- Oh, no doubt about that. I think a big part of that is that comics, until very recently, were mostly consumed by people - TWuG Mar 17, 19:38

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The comics industry has a pretty serious problem with misogyny. Too many old, white dudes just not getting it, both on the

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