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In response to "I think his actions detracted from his abilities. If he weren't such a knucklehead, he might have a shot. " by Groindo (Green lives matter)

The thing is with him as opposed to say Bonds...we have no idea for when Ramirez started using

Posted by Will Hunting (aka JoeMetz) Jan 7 '16, 10:47

Bonds, it's generally accepted that it was post 1998 McGwire/Sosa when he started using and for 6 years after, he went from Barry Bonds, MVP to Barry Bonds, destroyer of baseball history.

We have a rough baseline of Bonds' talent pre-roids. I don't think you have that baseline for Manny since he was performing the same in 2008 when he got popped as he'd performed in 1996...ya know?

Responses:

We don't *really* know about Bonds. And there's a bump in performance for Manny around 98/99. -- (edited) - musubi Jan 7, 10:51 11
- If it were just based on stats, Manny is a lock. His overall hitting stats are slightly better than Frank Thomas'. -- nm* - Inigo Jan 7, 10:55 10
  - Manny's numbers are superficially better, but when you account for park effects, I think Thomas is the slightly better hitter. - musubi Jan 7, 11:00 7
    - I think Thomas was a better hitter in his prime, but his prime didn't last nearly as long as Manny's did. -- nm - Inigo Jan 7, 11:05 4
      - Manny's longevity is presumably at least partially due to his failed tests. - musubi Jan 7, 11:07
      - Thomas was a scarier hitter than Manny. That's difficult to quantify, but Sheff and him had a presence that differentiated them from other sluggers. -- nm - Sith Lord Sexypants Jan 7, 11:07 2
        
        For a time, yes. But in 1998, 99, 2002, 2004, 2005 he was just a decent hitter those years. - Inigo Jan 7, 11:14
        
        Sheffield looked like he was wielding a weapon. - Mel Profit Jan 7, 11:11
    - Thomas is 156 vs 152 for Manny in OPS+ so yeah. -- nm - Will Hunting Jan 7, 11:01 1
      - It's even closer in WRC+, 154 to 153, but the point remains - musubi Jan 7, 11:05
  - wha???? -- nm - Groindo (Green lives matter) Jan 7, 10:56 1
    - Manny had more HR, RBI, Runs, 2B, Batting Average, Slugging, and total bases. -- (edited) - Inigo Jan 7, 11:02
as I don't have stats in front of me, but I think you can probably see it in there. - Groindo (Green lives matter) Jan 7, 10:49 2
- His first full season was over .300 30 plus homers and 107 RBI. - Inigo Jan 7, 10:53
- He hit 17hr's in 300 at-bats at 22 years old. - Will Hunting Jan 7, 10:53

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The thing is with him as opposed to say Bonds...we have no idea for when Ramirez started using

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