ST Alpha - "Without restarting the HoF debate, I'm fascinated by the way that voters who saw Edgar Martinez play appreciate him less than younger voters." (Reading a Post)

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Without restarting the HoF debate, I'm fascinated by the way that voters who saw Edgar Martinez play appreciate him less than younger voters.

Posted by David (aka David) Jan 25 '18, 09:16

Especially given the ardent support he has from other players including multiple pitchers already in the Hall of Fame. It just goes to show how much better we've gotten at baseball analysis since the days of "30 homers and 100 RBIs means you're a superstar".

Responses:

I'm shocked that so many more think Omar Vizquel was a better player than Scott Rolan. - Name Withheld by Request Jan 25, 09:25 17
- Right. That's been a rallying cry for Braves fans. Andruw was a better defender than Vizquel yet the latter player's getting more HoF attention. - David Jan 25, 09:28 13
  - [deleted] 1
    - He barely got enough to stay on the ballot. I think it was 7%. -- nm - David Jan 25, 09:36
  - I don' think either of them should be HoF players, to be honest. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:30 10
    - 80's/90's players and especially 3rd-basemen are vastly underrepresented. Rolan's statistically one of the best dozen to play the game. -- nm - Name Withheld by Request Jan 25, 09:40 4
      - I can't get to the numbers from work, but how long did he play at a high level? - groiny Jan 25, 09:41 3
        
        14-15 years -- nm - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:43 2
        
        that seems longer than I remember. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:44 1
        
        He had a couple weak years in the middle, but he was putting up OPS+ seasons of 125 or more 14-15 years apart -- nm - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:46
    - Andruw's 105 all-time in WAR. He should get in. -- nm - David Jan 25, 09:32 4
      - you know quite of these writers don't believe in WAR? -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:34 3
        
        Sure, that's the problem. It doesn't help that Andruw was so naturally gifted that the perception was that he coasted. - David Jan 25, 09:35 2
        
        And was finished by 31 years old -- nm - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:39
        
        I am sure many remember Bobby Cox pulling him from a game for it. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:36
- Vizquel did something (supposedly) better than Rolen did so of course he'll get more attention - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:26
- I think Omar had a much longer shelf life than Rolen. - groiny Jan 25, 09:26 1
  - Visquel was never 'great' though as an overall player. - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:29
Other than BA and OBP, Edgar's numbers are not eye popping. - groiny Jan 25, 09:19 19
- #63 all-time in slugging, #21 in OBP, tied for #32 in OPS, just ahead of Vlad, who got in on the first ballot. - David Jan 25, 09:23 18
  - Vlad was 2nd ballot. Every thing you mention there is averages; not definite production. - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:25 14
    - He's #42 in career OPS+, the best qualitative measure in determining a hitter's impact. - David Jan 25, 09:27 13
      - Thome did not get in for his OPS+ number, he got in for 612 - groiny Jan 25, 09:29 12
        
        Even so, Edgar and him had the same overall impact for each plate appearance. - David Jan 25, 09:31 11
        
        and in retrospect, you can blame the PED's for Edgar's numbers not looking as good. - groiny Jan 25, 09:36 7
        
        McGriff's starting to get more attention for that very reason. Larry Walker, too. -- nm - David Jan 25, 09:37 6
        
        I loved Larry Walker, but Colorado will always hurt him. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:39 5
        
        That’s certainly his problem right now. -- nm - David Jan 25, 09:44 4
        
        his numbers in Montreal were decent enough, but Col just took it to a whole new level. - groiny Jan 25, 09:45 3
        
        Then they should also note his away game splits during that time which hold up strong. -- nm - Name Withheld by Request Jan 25, 09:46 2
        
        His Coors Field OPS is 1.172; his career is .965. - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:50 1
        
        He hit .278 on the road in his career. Higher than 33 other Hall entrants and higher than guys like Griffey and Jackson. -- (link) - Name Withheld by Request Jan 25, 10:03
        
        except Thome did it for longer. - groiny Jan 25, 09:33 2
        
        Thome's a better candidate, but if he's in, Edgar has the numbers, too. - David Jan 25, 09:36 1
        
        honestly, Edgar was always the best hitter no one knew. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:37
  - and Vlad played the field for at least 3/4 of his career. - groiny Jan 25, 09:24
  - Vlad did not get in first ballot. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:23 1
    - Fine, second ballot. He had 92.9% of the vote. Everybody knows he deserved a spot. - David Jan 25, 09:25
The line I always liked was "Joe Morgan doesn't know why Joe Morgan was great". -- nm - Reagen Jan 25, 09:18 1
- Yup. And he stubbornly refuses to learn, which is kind of amazing on its own. - David Jan 25, 09:24
Is the common thought now - Strongbad Jan 25, 09:18 14
- Yeah, the process is such a joke that some guys will never vote for players like Chipper who are surefire first ballot HOFers. - David Jan 25, 09:20 10
  - it also annoys me that some do not even cast all 10 votes. - groiny Jan 25, 09:21 9
    - Meh. You vote for however many you think belong in. You don't vote for unworthy people just because you have extra votes. -- nm - Ender Jan 25, 09:35 1
      - looking at the list, there are no unworthy name on there. - groiny Jan 25, 09:38
    - I mean, you could legitimately not think 10 of these guys belong - Reagen Jan 25, 09:32
    - Yup, the voting process is impossibly broken. -- nm - David Jan 25, 09:24 5
      - The ghost of Joe DiMaggio will haunt them to their days because sportswriters in the 60s had a stupid standard. -- nm - Reagen Jan 25, 09:37
      - I find most sports writes have such big egos, that they do shit just to be different. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:27 3
        
        [deleted] 2
        
        for sure, and we always talk about snubs with that too. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:30 1
        
        [deleted]
- when I heard a guy interviewed, and he said he did not vote for Thome because he did not need his vote to get in. - groiny Jan 25, 09:20 2
  - There are plenty of game scenarios that's valid. - Will Hunting Jan 25, 09:24 1
    - the fact that you can vote based on the results so far, is an issue. -- nm - groiny Jan 25, 09:25

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Without restarting the HoF debate, I'm fascinated by the way that voters who saw Edgar Martinez play appreciate him less than younger voters.

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