ST Alpha - "Why should these murderers get harsher sentences than any other? Murder is murder, IMO." (Reading a Post)

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Why should these murderers get harsher sentences than any other? Murder is murder, IMO.

Posted by TWuG Jun 17 '09, 10:45

Hate crimes attachments just scream "thought crime" to me.

"It isn't bad enough you killed them, but you didn't like them either! Here's an extra 20 years!"

Responses:

by that logic, why differentiate between homicide and murder? The soccer mom who runs a red light should get the same sentence as David Berkowitz? -- nm - Max Jun 17, 11:13 2
- Murder and killing are separate things. Was there an intent to kill? If so, murder. -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 11:15 1
  - [deleted]
Your perspective is reversed. Hate crimes are meant to terrorize and control all people in a class, not just those directly affected. - not2fast Jun 17, 10:54 29
- No, my perspective is just fine. I don't like the "thought crime" aspect of hate crimes laws. -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 10:58 28
  - That is because you are looking at it from the criminal's perspective, not the victims'. -- nm - not2fast Jun 17, 11:05 4
    - *Every* victim is pissed at being a victim. I'm worried about criminalizing thought. It's not right. -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 11:08 3
      - [deleted] 2
        
        Yes, you are. You don't like the thoughts behind the crime so you punish it more severly -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 11:14 1
        
        [deleted]
  - How else do you propose to disincentivize unhelpful and entrenched ways of thinking? -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 10:59 22
    - Punish the shit out of the behavior that is the crime, ie assault/murder/etc - Will Hunting Jun 17, 11:03 2
      - but by only punishing the behahior, you are doing nothing to address its cause. -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 11:05 1
        
        No, you're simplifying the case and not getting into a gray area. - Will Hunting Jun 17, 11:11
    - you really think that harsher sentencing is a disincentive for this? can you show us any evidence to support that? -- nm - Guy Jun 17, 11:03 1
      - No, I can't. I'm just thinking out loud here, really. -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 11:04
    - The rub is who gets to say what's unhelpful/bad thought? -- nm - con_carne Jun 17, 11:00 3
      - *Reconsiders* Could we include support for the Desginated Hitter rule? -- nm - Ender Jun 17, 11:04 2
        
        read that as "Designated Hitler" -- nm - Dano Jun 17, 11:07 1
        
        Same thing, they're both evil. -- nm - Ender Jun 17, 11:08
    - Education and population turnover. -- nm - Ender Jun 17, 11:00 12
      - In the long run, yes. But that can take a while. -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 11:03 4
        
        But then the nebulous possiblity of 10 more years in prison isn't exactly an immediate disincentive to those thoughts either. -- nm - Ender Jun 17, 11:07 3
        
        but if nothing else, it removes the perpetrator from society so he is less able to pass along the worldview that spawned the action. -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 11:08 2
        
        Ah, so now we're locking away the people with the improper thoughts. - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:12 1
        
        Oh, believe me, if I wanted to lock away people with improper thoughts, there wouldn't be enough room in the entire state of alaska for them. - znufrii Jun 17, 11:14
      - Agreed. Many murders are motivated by hate, but only certain groups of people get addition "protection" from hate crimes laws. - TWuG Jun 17, 11:02 6
        
        [deleted] 5
        
        So white on white murder isn't as bad as white on black murder or black on white murder? Is black on black murder more tolerable than white on black - TWuG Jun 17, 11:12 4
        
        [deleted] 3
        
        Ah, so the "thought" behind the "crime" is what drives the extra punishment! "Thought crime"! -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 11:17
        
        I'll take being shot becuase I'm black over becuase I was just standing there. - Will Hunting Jun 17, 11:17 1
        
        [deleted]
Because people are less willing to serve a 40 year sentence for their hate, than a 30 year one. Duh!!! -- nm - Todd Manning Jun 17, 10:52
[deleted] 17
- Yes, those things are bad, but murder is muder. Motivation can maybe be argued as a reason to reduce a sentence, but I'm not in favor - TWuG Jun 17, 10:56 3
  - [deleted] 2
    - Fine, start at "murder=life sentence" and start subtracting years for mitigating circumstances. -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 11:04 1
      - [deleted]
- So? Does punishing people more harshly now for doing things that were more socially acceptable earlier in history somehow cleanse our national karma? - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 10:52 12
  - [deleted] 5
    - How does hate crime legislation do that? - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:03 4
      - [deleted] 3
        
        Well, now we're back to discouraging the *act*, not "rooting out the prejudices". - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:09 2
        
        [deleted] 1
        
        So now it's about making the victims feel better? - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:19
  - It goes some small way to address, or at least attempt to mitigate, the systemic irrationality that is the root of prejudice. - znufrii Jun 17, 10:55 5
    - By treating races differently, I say it props up that systemic irrationality. - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:00 4
      - [deleted] 3
        
        That doesn't make it any more rational. -- nm - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:05 2
        
        [deleted] 1
        
        [grin] Okay, Jack. You win! -- nm - Dr.Vermin Jun 17, 11:13
"Since it was a hate crime, we get to leave the electric chair on for an extra 90 seconds." -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 10:47
It's a bit harder to define that here in Canada ... it seems we don't have a "life without parole" option for punishment. -- nm - Beryllium Jun 17, 10:46 11
- I'd much prefer a "life without parole" option over the death penalty. Tends to be cheaper AND if new evidence comes to light - TWuG Jun 17, 10:49 9
  - Znufrii's Crazy Idea #598.2 - znufrii Jun 17, 10:53 2
    - The trouble comes in doing the mind/soul backup. I don't think hard drives technology is there yet. -- nm - Ender Jun 17, 10:54 1
      - well, yes, there is that small problem. -- nm - znufrii Jun 17, 10:55
  - [deleted] 3
    - Hmm. Probably a good point; maybe it's more for determining length and conditions of the stay in prison. You know ... from ClubFed to ... - Beryllium Jun 17, 10:52 2
      - Hate crimes laws increase the term served. They don't (and I didn't me to imply that they did) move a crime from "life" to "death penalty" -- nm - TWuG Jun 17, 10:54 1
        
        I had kind of meant to imply that, which is probably where JD got it from, but I guess I might have been wrong to do so -- nm - Beryllium Jun 17, 10:55
  - Agreed. But I mean, first-degree murder is basically "just" a 25 year sentence in canada, or so it seems. -- nm - Beryllium Jun 17, 10:51 1
    - (A lot of the time, especially with 2nd-degree, it can be as low as 10 years) -- nm - Beryllium Jun 17, 10:51
- (And we do have hate crime laws on the books, and they basically are used to bump up the harshness of the eventual sentence, especially for assaults) -- nm - Beryllium Jun 17, 10:47
It's intolerance of, well, intolerance! -- nm - con_carne Jun 17, 10:46

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Why should these murderers get harsher sentences than any other? Murder is murder, IMO.

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