ST Alpha - "No. I can't count his numbers from Japan. He's one of the best hitters I've ever seen but " (Reading a Post)

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In response to "Ichiro's got 3386 career hits (Japan + US) This places him 9th all-time" by Will Hunting

No. I can't count his numbers from Japan. He's one of the best hitters I've ever seen but

Posted by Krusty (aka Krustylu) Jun 5 '10, 08:27

he doesn't have all those hits against MLB pitchers.

Responses:

The fact he's hit almost as well against MLB pitchers to me makes them legit. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:29 22
- I wonder what that looks like as a mathematical algorithm. The record books people will need to know. -- nm - Mop Jun 5, 09:36
- Sure but I can't get past the fact that they weren't major league pitchers and those aren't major league parks. - Krusty Jun 5, 08:32 20
  - If it's smaller parks to mitigate his #'s, you'd see a massive spike in HR's for him taking advantage - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:22 18
    - Also much larger foul area in NBP. The leagues are different, no question. But you are making a bunch of random assumptions to accept some numbers - musubi Jun 5, 09:24 1
      - Vs the other argument of "Weaker pitching and smaller fields" - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:25
    - My argument is simple. He didn't get those hits in MLB, they don't count towards a MLB record. You can call him the world hits leader but - Krusty Jun 5, 09:23 12
      - what he's saying is, some people would care about that. not that he should get the MLB record. - TFox Jun 5, 09:25 6
        
        He can have the world hitting record. I won't deny how great a hitter he his but I won't give him a record he didn't earn. Also, who's Luke? -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:30 5
        
        The Force is not strong with this one. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:31
        
        "What else do I have to do for you people?!" *weeps* -- nm - Luke Skywalker si Jun 5, 09:31 3
        
        I thought it was Skywalker but I didn't get the joke. - Krusty Jun 5, 09:35 2
        
        :) - TFox Jun 5, 09:42 1
        
        Yeah, I've seen them I guess and I didn't get the joke then either and just moved on to another joke I don't get. :-) -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:43
      - You'll notice I didn't say MLB record in regards to Rose. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:25 4
        
        The number you're talking about is a MLB record and besides what other baseball records do people care about? -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:26 3
        
        When a # can be eclipsed by a guy who's proven a) that he's legit here and b) unable to be a full-here guy - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:29 2
        
        I'm loving the discussion myself. I don't consider those years taken from him. Was he not allowed to leave Japan earlier? Did he have to sign a - Krusty Jun 5, 09:34 1
        
        He wasn't a free agent there; and was posted when his team there thought they might lose hiim without compensation - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:36
    - Plus this: "They commonly have much wider foul areas than Major League parks, which decreases scoring because it creates more foul outs." -- (link) - TFox Jun 5, 09:23 2
      - Then you can argue that since they have a lot of turf fields, ground balls will get through more often since they move faster than on grass. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:25 1
        
        Or we could compare averages and see how many extra hits that might have resulted in ... oh wait. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:31
  - word -- nm - Nightcrawler Jun 5, 08:58
Besides, Rose did more than hit singles. IMO, Rose and a couple of others are better hitters than Ichiro. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 08:29 50
- The only # that matters for Rose is 4,256 - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:30 49
  - I can't see how you can count the hits he got in Japan. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 08:32 48
    - Simple math tells me he probably earned about 75 hits more in Japan than his career #'s dictate from MLB. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:42 47
      - I just can't count hits from another league in another country. He didn't get those hits playing MLB. The pitchers are not of the same caliber as - Krusty Jun 5, 09:02
      - What exactly is your argument, that Ichiro is a better hitter then Rose, or that he should have the hit record? - musubi Jun 5, 08:52 43
        
        Actually, I should probably say: better "player" than Rose, rather than better "hitter". - musubi Jun 5, 08:55 4
        
        As a hitter, I don't think it's close; Rose might be a better player, but he got the hits record by hanging around for 25 years - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:57 3
        
        Rose was almost assuredly not the better player, but as a hitter, he was likely Ichiro's equal, if not better. - musubi Jun 5, 09:04 2
        
        Rose's BA is .303 career. His OPS was .785. Ichiro's BA is .333 and his OPS is .820 or so. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:08 1
        
        In a totally different hitting environment. Look at their peaks, relative to their leagues, and you'll clearly see that Rose was Ichiro's equal - musubi Jun 5, 09:10
        
        I would say that he'd be a legitimate professional record holder at 4257. -- nm - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:54 37
        
        Just as much as Saduharo Oh is the record holder of professional home runs. - musubi Jun 5, 08:57 36
        
        Sure I can discount Oh...Japanese fields are smaller, much smaller. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:59 35
        
        plus, there's this bullshit: - TFox Jun 5, 09:07 1
        
        Those are the single season HR record. Totally different animal from the career record. - musubi Jun 5, 09:08
        
        I know you discounted it early, but there is no logical consistancy. Oh's home runs (like Ichiro's hits) were earned fairly on the field of play. - musubi Jun 5, 09:01 32
        
        They're different factors. One is the field of play; the other is in a not comparable field of play - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:05
        
        no, it's recognizing that different circumstances change the implication of those numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:04 30
        
        That's my point. We don't discount Ruth's home runs, why then would you discount Oh's? - musubi Jun 5, 09:07 14
        
        because the advantage those fields granted Oh did not grant the same advantage to Ichiro. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:08 13
        
        That's a false assertion. Look at the record books, balls weren't flying out of those stadiums. Oh did what others couldn't. Just like Ruth. - musubi Jun 5, 09:12 12
        
        so the park size *doesn't* matter to Ichiro's numbers? - Reagen Jun 5, 09:15 11
        
        Everything matters. That's why ignoring one set of number and not the other, just cause you want Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh - musubi Jun 5, 09:17 10
        
        to repeat myself, it's recognizing that different set of circumstances rule different numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:20 3
        
        I'm fine with that. Will is recognizing *some* differences, but not others, just cause he wants Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh. - musubi Jun 5, 09:31 2
        
        It's all about legitimacy. I don't consider Oh's to be as weighty/comparable to Aaron/Bonds for the reasons discussed. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:33
        
        What he is saying, I believe, is that not all those records would carry equal legitimacy. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:32
        
        isn't this the lifeblood of sabermetrics? ignoring numbers that don't mean much, and paying attention to other numbers that do? -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:18 5
        
        It's rigourous examination of all numbers and determining which mean the most. Not just saying, small parks, so those homers don't count. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 1
        
        Sure, but if we can't use obvious facts because we don't have a more inscrutable and abstract fact to support it is... something. - TFox Jun 5, 09:28
        
        This is what gets me. The ink that gets spilled over proving what people might have done, and this is the bridge too far? -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:21 2
        
        Where is the ink spilled proving what people might have done? - musubi Jun 5, 09:26
        
        we can retroactively figure a league-independant VORP for this guy, but can't say "home runs that wouldn't reach the wall in America are iffy". -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:22
        
        But people do argue that his mean less because they were only against white players. - Krusty Jun 5, 09:07 14
        
        I showed you it's 75 hits over his Japanese career based on #'s. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:09 11
        
        Ichiro is one of the greatest hitters ever to play baseball, why would you try an make such a hollow arguement just to get him record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:15 2
        
        Because baseball's a numbers game and 4257 professional hits would be more than anyone else ever. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:16 1
        
        I've already said they're the most professional hits ever. But they're also different. - musubi Jun 5, 09:29
        
        He got 1,200+ hits in Japan. I can't count those hits towards the record. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:13
        
        But we can't *know* Will! Spare me your numerical alchemy! -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:11 6
        
        We know he got those hits. Those hits are as real and as valid as any other. But they're not MLB hits. If you count those, you count Oh's HRs too. - musubi Jun 5, 09:16 5
        
        Yup. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:21
        
        "it's that simple." What we're saying is, maybe it's not. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:18 3
        
        How is it not that simple? Would a goal scored in Eastern Europe count to the NHL scoring record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:32 2
        
        the stats could eventually be compared (with a lot more work than baseball) - Reagen Jun 5, 09:34 1
        
        So your answer then is no, right? (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:36
        
        but not to the point that they discount Babe Ruth. They toss out that qualification and then summarily ignore it. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:08 1
        
        Fair enough. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:09
      - did you gross up for lost ABs -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 08:49 1
        
        Nope...3600/1000 = 3.6*20 = 72. So range from 70-75. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:53

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No. I can't count his numbers from Japan. He's one of the best hitters I've ever seen but

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