ST Alpha - "Besides, Rose did more than hit singles. IMO, Rose and a couple of others are better hitters than Ichiro. -- nm" (Reading a Post)

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In response to "No. I can't count his numbers from Japan. He's one of the best hitters I've ever seen but " by Krusty

Besides, Rose did more than hit singles. IMO, Rose and a couple of others are better hitters than Ichiro. -- nm

Posted by Krusty (aka Krustylu) Jun 5 '10, 08:29

(No message)

Responses:

The only # that matters for Rose is 4,256 - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:30 57
- I can't see how you can count the hits he got in Japan. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 08:32 56
  - Simple math tells me he probably earned about 75 hits more in Japan than his career #'s dictate from MLB. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:42 55
    - I just can't count hits from another league in another country. He didn't get those hits playing MLB. The pitchers are not of the same caliber as - Krusty Jun 5, 09:02
    - What exactly is your argument, that Ichiro is a better hitter then Rose, or that he should have the hit record? - musubi Jun 5, 08:52 51
      - Actually, I should probably say: better "player" than Rose, rather than better "hitter". - musubi Jun 5, 08:55 4
        
        As a hitter, I don't think it's close; Rose might be a better player, but he got the hits record by hanging around for 25 years - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:57 3
        
        Rose was almost assuredly not the better player, but as a hitter, he was likely Ichiro's equal, if not better. - musubi Jun 5, 09:04 2
        
        Rose's BA is .303 career. His OPS was .785. Ichiro's BA is .333 and his OPS is .820 or so. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:08 1
        
        In a totally different hitting environment. Look at their peaks, relative to their leagues, and you'll clearly see that Rose was Ichiro's equal - musubi Jun 5, 09:10
      - I would say that he'd be a legitimate professional record holder at 4257. -- nm - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:54 45
        
        Just as much as Saduharo Oh is the record holder of professional home runs. - musubi Jun 5, 08:57 44
        
        Sure I can discount Oh...Japanese fields are smaller, much smaller. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:59 43
        
        plus, there's this bullshit: - TFox Jun 5, 09:07 1
        
        Those are the single season HR record. Totally different animal from the career record. - musubi Jun 5, 09:08
        
        I know you discounted it early, but there is no logical consistancy. Oh's home runs (like Ichiro's hits) were earned fairly on the field of play. - musubi Jun 5, 09:01 40
        
        They're different factors. One is the field of play; the other is in a not comparable field of play - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:05
        
        no, it's recognizing that different circumstances change the implication of those numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:04 38
        
        That's my point. We don't discount Ruth's home runs, why then would you discount Oh's? - musubi Jun 5, 09:07 20
        
        because the advantage those fields granted Oh did not grant the same advantage to Ichiro. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:08 19
        
        That's a false assertion. Look at the record books, balls weren't flying out of those stadiums. Oh did what others couldn't. Just like Ruth. - musubi Jun 5, 09:12 18
        
        so the park size *doesn't* matter to Ichiro's numbers? - Reagen Jun 5, 09:15 17
        
        Everything matters. That's why ignoring one set of number and not the other, just cause you want Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh - musubi Jun 5, 09:17 16
        
        to repeat myself, it's recognizing that different set of circumstances rule different numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:20 7
        
        I'm fine with that. Will is recognizing *some* differences, but not others, just cause he wants Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh. - musubi Jun 5, 09:31 6
        
        It's all about legitimacy. I don't consider Oh's to be as weighty/comparable to Aaron/Bonds for the reasons discussed. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:33
        
        What he is saying, I believe, is that not all those records would carry equal legitimacy. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:32 4
        
        If that's what he's saying, great. But he specifically discounted Oh's professional record. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:33 1
        
        View more posts in this thread ...
        
        Right. Zero people have suggested giving him the MLB record. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:33 1
        
        View more posts in this thread ...
        
        isn't this the lifeblood of sabermetrics? ignoring numbers that don't mean much, and paying attention to other numbers that do? -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:18 7
        
        It's rigourous examination of all numbers and determining which mean the most. Not just saying, small parks, so those homers don't count. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 2
        
        Sure, but if we can't use obvious facts because we don't have a more inscrutable and abstract fact to support it is... something. - TFox Jun 5, 09:28 1
        
        Inscrutable abstract facts? Whatever dude. - musubi Jun 5, 09:41
        
        This is what gets me. The ink that gets spilled over proving what people might have done, and this is the bridge too far? -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:21 3
        
        Where is the ink spilled proving what people might have done? - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 1
        
        no one's done the work on Oh's # (that I'm aware of). It could be done. The work on Ichiro's #s is simpler. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:29
        
        we can retroactively figure a league-independant VORP for this guy, but can't say "home runs that wouldn't reach the wall in America are iffy". -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:22
        
        But people do argue that his mean less because they were only against white players. - Krusty Jun 5, 09:07 16
        
        I showed you it's 75 hits over his Japanese career based on #'s. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:09 13
        
        Ichiro is one of the greatest hitters ever to play baseball, why would you try an make such a hollow arguement just to get him record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:15 2
        
        Because baseball's a numbers game and 4257 professional hits would be more than anyone else ever. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:16 1
        
        I've already said they're the most professional hits ever. But they're also different. - musubi Jun 5, 09:29
        
        He got 1,200+ hits in Japan. I can't count those hits towards the record. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:13
        
        But we can't *know* Will! Spare me your numerical alchemy! -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:11 8
        
        We know he got those hits. Those hits are as real and as valid as any other. But they're not MLB hits. If you count those, you count Oh's HRs too. - musubi Jun 5, 09:16 7
        
        Yup. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:21
        
        "it's that simple." What we're saying is, maybe it's not. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:18 5
        
        How is it not that simple? Would a goal scored in Eastern Europe count to the NHL scoring record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:32 4
        
        the stats could eventually be compared (with a lot more work than baseball) - Reagen Jun 5, 09:34 3
        
        So your answer then is no, right? (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:36 2
        
        This is apples and oranges where the hits discussion is Red Delicious vs Fuji. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:39 1
        
        View more posts in this thread ...
        
        but not to the point that they discount Babe Ruth. They toss out that qualification and then summarily ignore it. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:08 1
        
        Fair enough. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:09
    - did you gross up for lost ABs -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 08:49 1
      - Nope...3600/1000 = 3.6*20 = 72. So range from 70-75. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:53

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