ST Alpha - "What exactly is your argument, that Ichiro is a better hitter then Rose, or that he should have the hit record?" (Reading a Post)

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In response to "Simple math tells me he probably earned about 75 hits more in Japan than his career #'s dictate from MLB." by Will Hunting

What exactly is your argument, that Ichiro is a better hitter then Rose, or that he should have the hit record?

Posted by musubi Jun 5 '10, 08:52

Because the former is likely, the latter is just silly.

Responses:

Actually, I should probably say: better "player" than Rose, rather than better "hitter". - musubi Jun 5, 08:55 4
- As a hitter, I don't think it's close; Rose might be a better player, but he got the hits record by hanging around for 25 years - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:57 3
  - Rose was almost assuredly not the better player, but as a hitter, he was likely Ichiro's equal, if not better. - musubi Jun 5, 09:04 2
    - Rose's BA is .303 career. His OPS was .785. Ichiro's BA is .333 and his OPS is .820 or so. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:08 1
      - In a totally different hitting environment. Look at their peaks, relative to their leagues, and you'll clearly see that Rose was Ichiro's equal - musubi Jun 5, 09:10
I would say that he'd be a legitimate professional record holder at 4257. -- nm - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:54 54
- Just as much as Saduharo Oh is the record holder of professional home runs. - musubi Jun 5, 08:57 53
  - Sure I can discount Oh...Japanese fields are smaller, much smaller. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 08:59 52
    - plus, there's this bullshit: - TFox Jun 5, 09:07 1
      - Those are the single season HR record. Totally different animal from the career record. - musubi Jun 5, 09:08
    - I know you discounted it early, but there is no logical consistancy. Oh's home runs (like Ichiro's hits) were earned fairly on the field of play. - musubi Jun 5, 09:01 49
      - They're different factors. One is the field of play; the other is in a not comparable field of play - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:05
      - no, it's recognizing that different circumstances change the implication of those numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:04 47
        
        That's my point. We don't discount Ruth's home runs, why then would you discount Oh's? - musubi Jun 5, 09:07 25
        
        because the advantage those fields granted Oh did not grant the same advantage to Ichiro. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:08 24
        
        That's a false assertion. Look at the record books, balls weren't flying out of those stadiums. Oh did what others couldn't. Just like Ruth. - musubi Jun 5, 09:12 23
        
        so the park size *doesn't* matter to Ichiro's numbers? - Reagen Jun 5, 09:15 22
        
        Everything matters. That's why ignoring one set of number and not the other, just cause you want Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh - musubi Jun 5, 09:17 21
        
        to repeat myself, it's recognizing that different set of circumstances rule different numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:20 12
        
        I'm fine with that. Will is recognizing *some* differences, but not others, just cause he wants Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh. - musubi Jun 5, 09:31 11
        
        It's all about legitimacy. I don't consider Oh's to be as weighty/comparable to Aaron/Bonds for the reasons discussed. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:33
        
        What he is saying, I believe, is that not all those records would carry equal legitimacy. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:32 9
        
        If that's what he's saying, great. But he specifically discounted Oh's professional record. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:33 2
        
        And now he's repeated that point 3 times, so I'm fairly sure that he doens't consider them all legit. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:34 1
        
        right, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the record. he does. it's on wikipedia. i can look it up and see that. - TFox Jun 5, 09:36
        
        Right. Zero people have suggested giving him the MLB record. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:33 5
        
        No Will thinks that there is a "professional hits" record that Ichiro should own. But Oh can't be the "professional" HR record holder. - musubi Jun 5, 09:36 4
        
        He can be the pro HR leader, I can think that's a less meaningful record. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:38
        
        no, he *is* the record holder. but the record is less meaningful than the other record. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:37 2
        
        That's nonsense. Either it's a legit record or it's not. - musubi Jun 5, 09:39 1
        
        Barry Bonds as MLB HR leader is exactly as legit as Hank Aaron was. yes or no? - Reagen Jun 5, 09:41
        
        isn't this the lifeblood of sabermetrics? ignoring numbers that don't mean much, and paying attention to other numbers that do? -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:18 7
        
        It's rigourous examination of all numbers and determining which mean the most. Not just saying, small parks, so those homers don't count. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 2
        
        Sure, but if we can't use obvious facts because we don't have a more inscrutable and abstract fact to support it is... something. - TFox Jun 5, 09:28 1
        
        Inscrutable abstract facts? Whatever dude. - musubi Jun 5, 09:41
        
        This is what gets me. The ink that gets spilled over proving what people might have done, and this is the bridge too far? -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:21 3
        
        Where is the ink spilled proving what people might have done? - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 1
        
        no one's done the work on Oh's # (that I'm aware of). It could be done. The work on Ichiro's #s is simpler. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:29
        
        we can retroactively figure a league-independant VORP for this guy, but can't say "home runs that wouldn't reach the wall in America are iffy". -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:22
        
        But people do argue that his mean less because they were only against white players. - Krusty Jun 5, 09:07 20
        
        I showed you it's 75 hits over his Japanese career based on #'s. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:09 17
        
        Ichiro is one of the greatest hitters ever to play baseball, why would you try an make such a hollow arguement just to get him record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:15 2
        
        Because baseball's a numbers game and 4257 professional hits would be more than anyone else ever. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:16 1
        
        I've already said they're the most professional hits ever. But they're also different. - musubi Jun 5, 09:29
        
        He got 1,200+ hits in Japan. I can't count those hits towards the record. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:13
        
        But we can't *know* Will! Spare me your numerical alchemy! -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:11 12
        
        We know he got those hits. Those hits are as real and as valid as any other. But they're not MLB hits. If you count those, you count Oh's HRs too. - musubi Jun 5, 09:16 11
        
        Yup. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:21
        
        "it's that simple." What we're saying is, maybe it's not. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:18 9
        
        How is it not that simple? Would a goal scored in Eastern Europe count to the NHL scoring record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:32 8
        
        the stats could eventually be compared (with a lot more work than baseball) - Reagen Jun 5, 09:34 7
        
        So your answer then is no, right? (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:36 6
        
        This is apples and oranges where the hits discussion is Red Delicious vs Fuji. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:39 5
        
        Will's solution is counting all the Red Delicious and the Fuji's together. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:43 4
        
        Actually, I've done enough rough calcs to show you why his #'s should vary within reason. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:46
        
        (because they are apples.) -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:43 2
        
        But not Gala and Granny Smiths! - musubi Jun 5, 09:45 1
        
        Or ripened vs any apple. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:47
        
        but not to the point that they discount Babe Ruth. They toss out that qualification and then summarily ignore it. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:08 1
        
        Fair enough. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:09

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What exactly is your argument, that Ichiro is a better hitter then Rose, or that he should have the hit record?

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