ST Alpha - "I know you discounted it early, but there is no logical consistancy. Oh's home runs (like Ichiro's hits) were earned fairly on the field of play." (Reading a Post)

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In response to "Sure I can discount Oh...Japanese fields are smaller, much smaller. " by Will Hunting

I know you discounted it early, but there is no logical consistancy. Oh's home runs (like Ichiro's hits) were earned fairly on the field of play.

Posted by musubi Jun 5 '10, 09:01

Either you count them differently or you don't. To do so with one and not the other is disingenuious.

Responses:

They're different factors. One is the field of play; the other is in a not comparable field of play - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:05
no, it's recognizing that different circumstances change the implication of those numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:04 52
- That's my point. We don't discount Ruth's home runs, why then would you discount Oh's? - musubi Jun 5, 09:07 30
  - because the advantage those fields granted Oh did not grant the same advantage to Ichiro. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:08 29
    - That's a false assertion. Look at the record books, balls weren't flying out of those stadiums. Oh did what others couldn't. Just like Ruth. - musubi Jun 5, 09:12 28
      - so the park size *doesn't* matter to Ichiro's numbers? - Reagen Jun 5, 09:15 27
        
        Everything matters. That's why ignoring one set of number and not the other, just cause you want Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh - musubi Jun 5, 09:17 26
        
        to repeat myself, it's recognizing that different set of circumstances rule different numbers. - Reagen Jun 5, 09:20 17
        
        I'm fine with that. Will is recognizing *some* differences, but not others, just cause he wants Ichiro to have a record, but not Oh. - musubi Jun 5, 09:31 16
        
        It's all about legitimacy. I don't consider Oh's to be as weighty/comparable to Aaron/Bonds for the reasons discussed. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:33
        
        What he is saying, I believe, is that not all those records would carry equal legitimacy. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:32 14
        
        If that's what he's saying, great. But he specifically discounted Oh's professional record. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:33 2
        
        And now he's repeated that point 3 times, so I'm fairly sure that he doens't consider them all legit. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:34 1
        
        right, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the record. he does. it's on wikipedia. i can look it up and see that. - TFox Jun 5, 09:36
        
        Right. Zero people have suggested giving him the MLB record. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:33 10
        
        No Will thinks that there is a "professional hits" record that Ichiro should own. But Oh can't be the "professional" HR record holder. - musubi Jun 5, 09:36 9
        
        He can be the pro HR leader, I can think that's a less meaningful record. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:38
        
        no, he *is* the record holder. but the record is less meaningful than the other record. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:37 7
        
        That's nonsense. Either it's a legit record or it's not. - musubi Jun 5, 09:39 6
        
        Barry Bonds as MLB HR leader is exactly as legit as Hank Aaron was. yes or no? - Reagen Jun 5, 09:41 5
        
        Yes. Bonds is the HR record holder. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:41 3
        
        Do you find yourself actually having the same level of caring for 762 as you do 755? - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:45 2
        
        like, here's the thing - I didn't actually know what Bonds' #s, but I still know 755. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:46
        
        I don't care about either all that much. They're records. - musubi Jun 5, 09:46
        
        win -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:41
        
        isn't this the lifeblood of sabermetrics? ignoring numbers that don't mean much, and paying attention to other numbers that do? -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:18 7
        
        It's rigourous examination of all numbers and determining which mean the most. Not just saying, small parks, so those homers don't count. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 2
        
        Sure, but if we can't use obvious facts because we don't have a more inscrutable and abstract fact to support it is... something. - TFox Jun 5, 09:28 1
        
        Inscrutable abstract facts? Whatever dude. - musubi Jun 5, 09:41
        
        This is what gets me. The ink that gets spilled over proving what people might have done, and this is the bridge too far? -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:21 3
        
        Where is the ink spilled proving what people might have done? - musubi Jun 5, 09:26 1
        
        no one's done the work on Oh's # (that I'm aware of). It could be done. The work on Ichiro's #s is simpler. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:29
        
        we can retroactively figure a league-independant VORP for this guy, but can't say "home runs that wouldn't reach the wall in America are iffy". -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:22
- But people do argue that his mean less because they were only against white players. - Krusty Jun 5, 09:07 20
  - I showed you it's 75 hits over his Japanese career based on #'s. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:09 17
    - Ichiro is one of the greatest hitters ever to play baseball, why would you try an make such a hollow arguement just to get him record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:15 2
      - Because baseball's a numbers game and 4257 professional hits would be more than anyone else ever. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:16 1
        
        I've already said they're the most professional hits ever. But they're also different. - musubi Jun 5, 09:29
    - He got 1,200+ hits in Japan. I can't count those hits towards the record. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:13
    - But we can't *know* Will! Spare me your numerical alchemy! -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:11 12
      - We know he got those hits. Those hits are as real and as valid as any other. But they're not MLB hits. If you count those, you count Oh's HRs too. - musubi Jun 5, 09:16 11
        
        Yup. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:21
        
        "it's that simple." What we're saying is, maybe it's not. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:18 9
        
        How is it not that simple? Would a goal scored in Eastern Europe count to the NHL scoring record? - musubi Jun 5, 09:32 8
        
        the stats could eventually be compared (with a lot more work than baseball) - Reagen Jun 5, 09:34 7
        
        So your answer then is no, right? (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:36 6
        
        This is apples and oranges where the hits discussion is Red Delicious vs Fuji. -- nm - Reagen Jun 5, 09:39 5
        
        Will's solution is counting all the Red Delicious and the Fuji's together. (nm) - musubi Jun 5, 09:43 4
        
        Actually, I've done enough rough calcs to show you why his #'s should vary within reason. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:46
        
        (because they are apples.) -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:43 2
        
        But not Gala and Granny Smiths! - musubi Jun 5, 09:45 1
        
        Or ripened vs any apple. - Will Hunting Jun 5, 09:47
  - but not to the point that they discount Babe Ruth. They toss out that qualification and then summarily ignore it. -- nm - TFox Jun 5, 09:08 1
    - Fair enough. -- nm - Krusty Jun 5, 09:09

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I know you discounted it early, but there is no logical consistancy. Oh's home runs (like Ichiro's hits) were earned fairly on the field of play.

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